This video discussion, moderated by Sister Sharon Eubank of the general Relief Society presidency, features each member of the Presiding Bishopric — Presiding Bishop Gerald Caussé, First Counselor Dean M. Davies and second counselor W. Christopher Waddell — sharing important insight into the why and how of Church finances. The discussion took place in August 2018.
Sister Eubank: It's a pleasure to have all three of you in this building which is special to us. This is the Relief Society Building on Temple Square. And it's a chance for us to just to get together and talk a little bit about questions about Church finances, so thank you for being here.
I wonder if I could just first of all, just ask, you are all three presiding bishop ‑‑ you're in the presiding bishopric. What exactly is the presiding bishopric, and what its role in the church?
Bishop Caussé: Maybe I can take this question, Sister Eubank. It's a really good question. I realize that for a lot of Church members, the Presiding Bishopric is not very clear, what is it doing really, for the Church? And well, let me summarize it. When we were called about three years ago, President Monson, who set me apart, summarized our responsibilities in a very simple way. He said, "Your first responsibility is to be the presidency of the Aaronic Priesthood for the Church." Then he said, "A second responsibility is that you oversee the temporal affairs of the Church worldwide." And then the third responsibility which was the most humbling to me, he said, "You oversee the efforts to take care of the poor and the needy of the Church and also of the world." And I would like to say our role is really to prepare the way to provide, to bring all the resources, especially temporal resources for the work of the Church to be accomplished around the world.
Sister Eubank: I appreciate you saying that because reflective the way a ward works, and a Relief Society presidency works very closely with the bishop, at the general level, the Relief Society presidency works very closely with the Presiding Bishopric, and so we have a lot of work to do in those same things that President Monson called you to do.
Bishop Caussé: Absolutely.
Sister Eubank: Sometimes we hear the term “temporal affairs." And I just wondered, could you just define what that means, "temporal affairs," and what would a church have to do with temporal affairs?
Bishop Davies: Well, collectively, temporal affairs in the Church setting represents a multitude of resources ‑‑ people, places, systems, buildings, facilities, organizations ‑‑ all that function to provide the resources necessary for the Church to perform its divine mission of inviting all to come unto Christ. It's not unlike a family, a growing family. The Church is growing all over the world. And so people need places to worship, places for temples, places for seminaries and institute, and all the support systems. And just like a family that's growing, there needs to be financial resources to help fund those activities.
Sister Eubank: What are some of the misperceptions that you've encountered, or what are some of the things that you wish people understood better about the Church?
Bishop Waddell: I'd like to answer this. I think some of the misperceptions that I have heard and maybe read from other people is that they see the Church as a large financial or corporate institution. And it's anything but that. You know, in the corporate world, the purpose is behind profits, financial profits. In our world, the purpose is not financial profits, it's to bless lives spiritually. It's to invite people to come unto Christ. It's to assist them to, as they draw closer to Christ, to improve their lives perhaps temporally, that may happen, but spiritually is really the key to that. And so, we're not after financial profits. We want to bless lives.
Sister Eubank: Bishop Waddell just talked about then the why of the financial resources of the Church. Bishop Caussé, could you just talk about what are the main categories that the Church spends its money on?
Bishop Caussé: Well, it takes a lot of resources for the Church to accomplish its mission. We generally speak about six areas of spendings. And you will understand them. These are the divinely‑appointed responsibilities of the Church mostly. The first one is to share the gospel with the world. And so as we know, we have 70,000 ‑‑ about 70,000 missionaries around the world. And in more than 400 missions, and they need support, including resources. Second area, it's very simple, we have meetinghouses. Every one of us, members of the Church, we meet in meetinghouses every Sunday. And 20,000 meetinghouses that need to be built, maintained, and repaired, and renovated. And this is a huge operation. Then of course, caring for the poor and needy, the welfare programs, the humanitarian initiatives of the Church. We talk about billions of dollars being expended over the past few years. Of course, we can talk about temples and family history programs, building, fortifying families. 159 temples today, but as you know, 30 temples, other temples have been announced or under construction. And there will be more in the future. Temples will cover the earth. There are also a lot of efforts are being provided in the field of education, promoting education, whether it is seminaries, institute programs, of course university of the Church. 130,000 students in those universities of the Church. This is significant. And of course the sixth area is the general administration of the Church. So six areas of area of uses that all support the mission of the Church.
Sister Eubank: In follow‑up to that, maybe we could just talk about how do decisions get made about how to spend the financing of the Church in those different categories?
Bishop Davies: Well, that's a great question, and it's one that's important to understand. The Church operates in councils. Church leaders, men and women at all levels, work together to council together on programs, spending, and the efforts of the Church. At the highest level, and once each year, there is a council on the disposition of the tithes. That includes the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and the Presiding Bishop who review the overall spending programs for the Church, including all departments, all activities worldwide. There are other councils. The Budget and Appropriations Council is a subset to the Council on the Disposition of Tithes. They meet every week. They review budget requests and exceptions, requests for new projects, how to fund. There are multiple councils including both men and women, brothers and sisters in the Church, the general Relief Society, the Primary, the Young Women ‑‑ they are all involved on these councils. There is balance, there is perspective that comes in these councils, not just from men, but from the women of the Church. They're well represented and respected. And it's all ‑‑ at the core of everyone's heart is, "is this an appropriate expenditure in helping to fulfill the mission of the Church?"
Sister Eubank: I've had the experience myself of submitting the humanitarian budget through Bishopric, and having it come down from that council and say, "We want to expand the humanitarian budget beyond what was proposed," and the interesting dynamics around that, so.
Bishop Davies: It's interesting, Sister Eubank, that in 2009 I was staffed to the Budget and Appropriations Committee. You'll remember there was a recession that was taking place worldwide. Every budget in the Church was reduced that year except one, and that was Welfare and Humanitarian. The Presidency of the Church said we will take care of those in need, even in the times of crisis.
Sister Eubank: That's the very time you want to expand that kind of a budget.
Bishop Davies: Yeah.
Bishop Caussé: It's a very humbling responsibility to take care of those sacred funds and to make those decisions or to recommend them to the First Presidency and the Twelve. And the three of us, we have a business background. And of course we take this background with us as we look at those matters and we use our experience, expertise in some fields. But ultimately, any decision is made in the spirit of prayer. We seek the will of the Lord and we don't want to implement anything that would be ours. We try our best to be instruments in the hands of the Lord.
Sister Eubank: Bishop Waddell, maybe you would talk a little bit about why does the Church keep reserves? Why don't they just take the money that they have and apply it to the needs at the time?
Bishop Waddell: That's a great question. You know, what the Church does is what ‑‑ is what is taught to all the members of the ‑‑ of the Church, and really everyone around the world. And that is, a scriptural pattern, "if ye are prepared ye shall not fear." And so what is taught is that people should over time, not all at once, but they should be careful to live within their means and little by little, they should have a financial store savings, reserves for a rainy day. And that's exactly what the Church does. The Church has a budget, again, from the faithful tithes and offerings of members of the Church, and every year is budgeted a portion to set aside. A small portion to set aside for that rainy day that grows to be used. We also recognize that there are going to be needs in the future that we may not recognize today. The Church is growing rapidly in many parts of the world, particularly developing parts of the world where there are great needs. In addition, we are building more and more temples. We have building meetinghouses and we need these reserves for not just today, but for what's going to happen in five years or 10 years or 20 years and beyond. And so with those reserves and resources, no matter what may happen financially in the world, whatever crisis may take place, we'll have the resources to continue to do the Lord's work.
Sister Eubank: So in a family analogy you're the parent who starts the college fund the day the baby's born?
Bishop Waddell: Exactly. Exactly.
Sister Eubank: I think that's a bad analogy.
Bishop Waddell: No, that's a great analogy considering we have children in college.
Sister Eubank: Okay.
Bishop Davies: Just that we've got a few million children now.
Sister Eubank: That's it. What would you say to a Church member who says, "I paid my tithing to a church, and I don't want them to invest it in business enterprises?"
Bishop Caussé: Well, we don't invest for the sake of making profit or building businesses or whatever it is. As Bishop Waddell said, it's about building a reserve for the Church, and ultimately, all of those funds will be used for Church purposes. So this is about preparing for the future. This is not ‑‑ this is not expenditures, these are investments. There's a difference between investment and expenditures. Investment is not burying the money in the ground like in the parable of the talents, but making sure that it's not idle, that the Church will enjoy an increase value of these reserves so they can be used for the sake of the purpose of the Church.
Bishop Davies: I might add to that that most of the funds that are received each year are actually spent in the year that they're received. It's a modest amount each year that is set aside that isn't used for the purposes that Bishop Caussé mentioned, for future use. Plus the Church has no debt. We don't spend and buy things that we can't afford. And it's a wise, wise way of managing the resources, to put them to work until they're needed for a wise purpose in the Lord.
Bishop Waddell: The other thing, Sister Eubank, is that with those investments, with the Church reserves, that I talked a little bit about Church reserves before, one of the aspects of being wise stewards, and of taking care of these sacred resources properly is to diversify. That phrase "not have all your eggs in one basket." And so, we don't do that as a Church either. I mean we wouldn't recommend that anyone else do that. So City Creek, as an example, would be "an" investment, but one aspect. There are properties, there may be other types of investments, financial instruments, and things like that, but you don't have everything in one place. That's an investment that returns ‑‑ returns to the Church, returns earnings to the Church that can be used for that one divine purpose. As Bishop Davies was saying, it all ultimately goes to the same purpose, and that's to ‑‑ that's to share the gospel of Jesus Christ, to invite all to come up to Christ, to gather scattered Israel, and to do the Lord's work.
Sister Eubank: Would you add anything Bishop Caussé?
Bishop Caussé: I would only add that in the case of City Creek, there was a dual purpose. First, a purpose is reserves of the Church, this is a way to invest the reserves of the Church. But also, it is about Salt Lake City, which is the headquarters, where the headquarters of the Church are. And economy, development, the beauty of the environment around the temple and Temple Square is very important to the Church. And so we worked hand‑in‑hand with the local community to develop. We have a role to play in Salt Lake City.
Sister Eubank: What would you say, to some people [who] feel like to ask a person of very limited means to pay tithing to a Church that has considerable financial assets, that that's kind of being tone deaf to the situation that they experience in their lives. How would you respond to that?
Bishop Davies: I'd like to respond to that one. Tithing is a very important principle to me. It's a blessing. The Law of Tithing, it's a covenant we make when we're baptized. It's a covenant with a promise. And the Lord blesses those who pay their tithing that they will be blessed spiritually and temporally. And so the Lord doesn't discriminate in who He blesses. He blesses all of His children, everywhere around the world. And when they keep those covenants and those promises that they make, including tithing, they're blessed. And we have so many stories of those Church members of meager means who have made the sacrifice to keep that covenant and that promise, who have found themselves blessed by the Lord, both spiritually, especially spiritually, but temporally, they've been able to see the blessings and benefits of the gospel. They receive impressions and feelings. Their lives are improved. They're blessed. And so whether you're rich or poor, it's a covenant that applies to all.
Bishop Waddell: The Lord asked us to pay tithing because they're blessings that we need from Him that can only be received as we obey particular commandments. There are blessings that are associated with tithing that aren't associated with any other commandment, and He knows the blessings that we need. And as we pay a faithful tithing, you know, we understand that those individuals who are paying tithing, that the Lord can do more for them than we can do for them. And to deny them that blessing just wouldn't be appropriate.
Sister Eubank: I think it's interesting to feel, you know, as a bishopric, you have the responsibility to make sure those tithing funds are used appropriately. But for the individual paying tithing, the Lord almost dares in the Old Testament, He says, "Prove me, and see if I don't pour out blessings on you." And that's between them and the Lord.
Bishop Davies: There's another element related to the payment of tithes and offerings. The Church demographics are changing. You know, there are people that are faithful members of the Church today that weren't members of the Church in 1985 or 1990. There was a time, as a young couple, Darla and I were asked to pay an annual Welfare Assessment, a Budget Assessment, a Temple Building Assessment and our tithing. It was more than 10 percent. But we did so because of our covenants with the Lord. Because of the faithful tithe paying of members all over the world, many of those have been eliminated because of the tithes and offerings now we're able to perform all of those services without asking people to contribute even more. I remember going to church one Sunday morning in a priesthood meeting. I'll never forget, it was in Diamond Bar, California. And the bishop got up to the podium and pled with the members of the priesthood that he needed money that day to pay bills because there wasn't enough money in the bank account. And I just told myself, "I will never be in a situation where we haven't contributed our tithes and offerings so a bishop doesn't have to have that kind of plea for assistance."
Sister Eubank: A recent release in the Church's Newsroom site reported that the Church had spent billions of dollars recently on humanitarian and welfare needs. And I just want to ask, seriously, billions? I mean it's a little Carl Sagan. Is it really billions? What has happened?
Bishop Waddell: It is billions. We're talking about the use of over 30,000 bishops and branch presidents all around the world making use of the resources of the Church to help those in need. We're talking about the bishop's storehouses, we're talking about Deseret Industries, we're talking about all of the humanitarian and welfare efforts of the Church, everywhere around the world. Our disaster relief and things like that. I just came back ‑‑ as an example ‑‑ I just returned from Africa and had an opportunity to meet with government officials from the Ministry of Health in the Ivory Coast. We were meeting because they wanted to thank us specifically for the help that we had given with maternal newborn care. And the resources that the Church had provided for them. And then to council together and how we could continue to work with them. In a few weeks I'll be in a meeting at the headquarters of the World Food Program in Rome to talk about what we have been able to do with them, and what we will do in the future. And there are examples like that all over the world. How many natural disasters are there? The earthquakes and the hurricanes, and the Church is always there assisting. And so, when you add all of that up, it literally adds up to billions over the past few years. And it will continue to be because again, as was mentioned right at the very beginning by Bishop Caussé, one of the primary responsibilities of the Church, and of the bishopric, is to care for the poor and needy. And so a significant portion of those resources goes to assist them, which is another reason we have those reserves, to be able to assist because things aren't getting easier, they're getting more challenging. There are more and more needs in addition to those that we have on a regular basis. We do help with vision care, we do help with wheelchair programs, we have clean water programs. We have the maternal newborn care programs and others that are consistent and ongoing, and those budgets are increased on an annual basis.
Bishop Caussé: Well, I would like to say billions of dollars, it feels like a big number. And it is a big number. But it is only part of the effort. What about the millions of hours of members of the Church who work and they go to disaster areas and help Helping Hands? What about those who go to welfare farms and do the harvest there? What about those who fast once a month, and will refrain from drinking and eating for 24 hours and so they can give funds and contributions to the bishop of the ward, that will use it for the poor, and for the people who need help within their community? It's a lot more than just billions. That's the reason why it's difficult to really measure the contribution of the Church in terms of dollars. Dollars is only part of it, but it doesn't represent the whole thing.
Sister Eubank: There have been a lot of attempts over the years to maybe estimate the Church's net worth, and that goes back to a little bit to what you were talking about. What would you say if you had to define it, if someone asked you?
Bishop Davies: I suppose people could try to put a number on a meetinghouse or a temple. But if you think about it, those are actually liabilities in the sense that when we complete a building, it needs to be maintained and cared for, it needs to be cleaned and repairs and maintenance done over the life of an asset. The real wealth of the Church is not in its possessions, it's in the Church members. It's in their faith. It's in their devotion to their Savior and to their Heavenly Father, their faithfulness of paying tithes and offerings. And we're so careful, so very, very careful to make certain that those funds are expended in a way that they would feel good about. And I'm so grateful, terribly grateful for the faithful members of the Church.
Bishop Caussé: Well, people say the Church is a prosperous institution, but relative prosperity of the Church is only a reflection of the faith of the members in paying tithing, in paying offerings. But also, it's a reflection of that promise and the accomplishment of the promise of the Lord that is found in the Book of Mormon. Eighteen times. "Inasmuch as you keep my commandments, ye shall prosper in the land."
Sister Eubank: Sometimes the Church is referred to as a "rich church" or a "prosperous church." Could you just put that in context, Bishop Davies?
Bishop Davies: Well, I can say that the Church is able to pay its bills on time. But the Church has known significant periods of not having all of the means that it needed to perform its divine mission. Even as recently as the late 1960s when the Church Office Building was being constructed, there was not enough money in the savings account to complete it, so it was postponed for a year or two until the money ‑‑ there were adequate funds to be able to complete that project. So, the Church has sufficient for its needs and it's prudent in managing those very carefully so that we will always be able to perform the services that the Lord would have us perform.
Sister Eubank: But borne by rigorous experiences?
Bishop Davies: By rigorous experience.
Bishop Waddell: Which is why, once again, going back to the beginning, why we teach, if ye are prepared, ye shall not fear. And the idea of setting aside for the future, so that if hard times economically do come again ‑‑ and they will ‑‑ over time we know there are cycles ‑‑ that we will have the resources necessary to continue doing this divine work. We won't have to stop missionary work. We won't have to stop temple work. We won't have to stop doing the things that we have been commissioned to do because of a lack of resources. That's why we care for them so carefully.
Bishop Caussé: I was recently in Kirtland and visited that beautiful place. Of course a historic place for the Church, and I was reminded of the difficulties of the saints, the first saints of the restored gospel, when they tried to establish themselves there. And almost everything they had was for building the temple. And they didn't have any meetinghouses at that time. They met in homes, in schools, and they did what they could. But it's humbling to always go back to that period of time and to measure the blessings of the Lord. But sometimes I wonder why has the [Lord] blessed His people and the Church so much in our times? And I have to believe that those blessings will be needed in the future. The role of this dispensation is to prepare for the second coming of the Lord. We are to take the gospel to the four corners of the earth, and this will take a lot of resources. So we have to be prepared for this, and the Lord is blessing us because He is expecting us to do a lot.
Sister Eubank: Bishop Caussé, I wondered if you could just answer this. Some people are eager for more details about the Church finances. Why doesn't the Church just publish every detail about its finances?
Bishop Caussé: Well, it is a church. It's a simple answer, but it is a church. It's not a financial institution, it's not a business corporation. It is a church. And so the way we like to measure the church is according to spiritual matters. And as was said before, the Church's sacred funds are managed with great care and responsibility and seriousness by the leaders of the Church. We believe in inspiration and revelation. The presiding council of the Church are all in there. Of course we use professional people and staff and they have great talents and abilities and expertise. But at the end of the day, the decisions, the main decisions are made by presiding councils according to the spirit of revelation. We believe in this, and I testify of this because we see the hand of the Lord every day in this work.
Sister Eubank: Does the Church respond to auditing protocols and things like that or is it handled differently?
Bishop Caussé: Well, we work like any institution in the world. We have requirements in terms of reporting and of course auditing. So we use professional auditors. They review our accounts, they make recommendations. We are very serious at following these recommendations. So you can say that although we say everything is spiritual, we have to do our part on the temporal side and we do it very well.
Sister Eubank: I can't think of a time when all three members of the Presiding Bishopric have sat down and had a conversation like this. I'm so thankful that you would be candid and frank and share some experiences. Is there anything you would like to just say as we conclude?
Bishop Waddell: I'll start, and I think maybe everyone has something to say. Just what a privilege it is to be involved in this work, to see how the temporal and the spiritual work together, to see the great care that the senior leaders of the Church and the councils of the Church take in managing these resources, to see how the Lord blesses you when you do what He asks you to do. And to recognize that we will have the resources to continue doing this work without interruption. That we have what is needed and we will have what is needed, as long as we continue managing it appropriately and He's asked us to do that. It is a sacred trust, and it is a privilege to be involved.
Sister Eubank: Thank you, Bishop Waddell.
Bishop Davies: I couldn't agree more with Bishop Waddell. There's so much unity in what we do. As a bishopric, we counsel together with each other. No significant decisions are made or taken without prayerful consideration. It's not unusual at all in the financial matters of the Church that we'll ask department heads to go back and measure twice, three times before we make a decision, to make sure that every consideration has been given. Sister Davies and I, we tease each other. I tell her, "I don't mind if I lose my own money, but I never want to be responsible for any abuses of the Lord's sacred offerings and tithes." And it's just such a great blessing as a bishopric to be able to serve and in the way that we do, working with each other in the operations of the Church.
Bishop Caussé: What a blessing to have those two men that are inspired every day. Good friends, but great men of the Lord. This is the Church. This is not any organization, any corporation. This is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints. And we testify of this. There is the power of revelation in this Church. There is the Lord's will being accomplished every day, and we are grateful for members of the Church around the world, wherever they are, whatever their means are, who are contributing, who are showing faith in their contribution but also in everything they do every day. This church is all about people. It's about inviting people to come unto Christ, and we testify of them, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
All: Amen.